Old Goat

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Posts by Old Goat

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  1

  update on new history of Watch Tower

  by Old Goat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  those of you who read my posts know my primary interest in history.

  i've posted many times about schulz and de vienne's first book and directed you to their history blog.

  i think their work is exceptional.

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  Old Goat

  Those of you who read my posts know my primary interest in history. I've posted many times about Schulz and de Vienne's first book and directed you to their history blog. I think their work is exceptional. Miss de Vienne has posted an update on their forth-coming book. It is the first volume of two. I think her essay is well worth reading:

  http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

  I've exchanged a few emails with Dr. de Vienne. She has a hugely funny way of putting things. I read her novel too. I think we can expect balance from these authors. The parts of their work I've read are very informative. They take you to places you'd never think of going for Watch Tower details. Some of it is just interersting. Some truly informative. Give her essay a read.
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  23

  did Russell come up with 1914 via the pyramid or just confirm it via pyramid

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i read somewhere that the 1914 date came from bourbor and that russell used the pyramid to confirm his belief in 1914. its this accurate?

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  Old Goat

  John Aquila Brown was a silver and gold smith, and apparently an Anglican. He was a Literalist. That is, he believed in the plain sence of the scriptures rather than a spiritualizing sense. Schulz and de Vienne explain the Literalist influences on Russell in their new, forth coming book. This is an entire area that was new to me, as far as Russell is concerned. When Barbour stopped at the British Library in 1859, and later at the Astor Library in NYC, he consulted books on prophecy. The one he mentions is Elliott's Horae. But Isaac Wellcome says Barbour used Brown too. This is probable. A brief bio of J. A. Brown is found in Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet.

  Chronological speculation extends back to the medieval era. Some of it is very detailed, some not. A good general history of last days speculation is L. E. Froom's Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers. Be aware that Froom was a die-hard SDA professor. He tries to make some who would have soundly rejected his doctrine into predecessors of the SDA faith. But it is a good introduction to the subject. Isaac Newton, William Whiston, the German Lutheran expositors such as Piscator all dabbled in it. Millerites were late comers. So was Brown.
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  23

  did Russell come up with 1914 via the pyramid or just confirm it via pyramid

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i read somewhere that the 1914 date came from bourbor and that russell used the pyramid to confirm his belief in 1914. its this accurate?

  .

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  Old Goat

  Okay, so this old man isn't done. The idea of an invisilble parousia did not come for the Whites or SDA teachers. The idea is found in 17th century Anglican and Separatist writers, except back then they didn't call it an invisible presence, but a "virtual" presence as distinguished from a "real" presence. After the 1844 dissapointment John B. Cook and some of his associates (not SDA) suggested that Christ had indeed arrived, but invisibly.

  Non-Adventists such as Shimeall and Seiss (Presbyterian and Lutheran) and many other prominent clergy taught a two-stage intially invisible presence. That was Russell and Barbour's doctrine. Russell believed that until 1881 when he postulated a totally invisible presence. Russell's pyramid beliefs have lost their context for most who post here. When Smyth published his book in 1864, many serious scholars, including the great archaeologist Flinders Petrie were taken with it. Petrie had the good sense to check the data and pronounced it nonsense, but he did believe it for a while.

  Pyramidology was widely believed when Russell was introduced to it. Clarence Larkin, the Baptist expositor, believed it. Joseph Seiss, still well respected for his commentary on Revelation, believed it. Thomas de Witt Talmage believed it. No one notices that. Russell was not exceptional in this. He was a man of his times. If we see it as supersititon now, it was not then. The problem is that he didn't follow Petrie and examine it up close and personally. Even a trip to the pyramid didn't change his mind.
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  23

  did Russell come up with 1914 via the pyramid or just confirm it via pyramid

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i read somewhere that the 1914 date came from bourbor and that russell used the pyramid to confirm his belief in 1914. its this accurate?

  .

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  Old Goat

  Bung,

  That's nonsense. The 1914 date came from a couple of Anglicans who speculated on prophecy. E. B. Elliot and Christopher Bowen formulated a date system from which Barbour borrowed. Period. The 2520 year count's first known publication was from an American Calvinist preacher. Repeating discredited claims does we "apostates" no good and much harm.

  Russell's doctrine wasn't Second Adventist. It was Age-to-Come, specifically One Faith, a small group of about 4000 gathered around the newspaper The Restitution. They are by outsiders sometimes characterized as Age-to-Come adventists, but in point of fact were antagonistic to Adventists. There was mutual ill will.

  By the time Russell met him, Storrs had been long separated from Millerite Adventism, and was, in fact, shunned by many Millerite Adventists. This is not all that hard to discover. Stetson had once been associated with Advent Christians. By 1870 he was writing for the Resititution and the British journal Rainbow. Neither of these journals, nor Stetson was then teaching Adventist doctrine.

  Somewhere on this forum is a rather stupid post saying that Russell called Miller "father miller." That's false. The article in question was by John Corbin Sunderlin, an associate of Russell's. Neither men endorsed Miller's doctrine. Russell tells what his relationship to Miller and his doctrine is in Studies in the Scriptures. Parroting wrong statements because they appeal to you is rather stupid. Almost no one on this forum checks on the validity of what they write about Russell.

  Was he a fruitcake? Sometimes. Is most of what's said on this forum accurate? Almost never. Do some original research. Read the original source material. Skip wikipedia which is largely wrong. Almost all of the original source material is available online or with moderate difficulty elsewhere.

  If we want to make valid points, we should be accurate. The book on N. Barbour I mentioned in a previous content is a good starting point. The authors plan to release volume one of their next book early next year. I've read most of it in rough draft. Buy it when it comes out. It shines lights in places no one has looked before, and does it from original source material, including letters and papers I did not know existed. But by all means check your statements before you make them, because most of what you've read here and elsewhere is just wrong.

  Read this blog on a regular basis. You will benefit: http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
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  23

  did Russell come up with 1914 via the pyramid or just confirm it via pyramid

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so i read somewhere that the 1914 date came from bourbor and that russell used the pyramid to confirm his belief in 1914. its this accurate?

  .

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  Old Goat

  Barbour borrowed the 1914 date from E. B. Elliott's Horae. Russell did not derive the date from pyramidology but found it confirmed there.

  You should read Schulz and de Vienne's Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet. lulu for physical book, barns and noble for ebook. Excellent research.
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  33

  Are there people who have returned

  by His Excellency in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  considering all the consequences of leaving the organization (especially the loss of family), some who have already known ttat have decided to return and continue with the flow just to keep their families and friend.. my question is if anyone here had tried it and how they have been managing living a lie constantly day-after-day?, as i am seriously considering returnning back to the full routine..

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  Old Goat

  Label, it happens to me sometimes if I write my comment in Word and past it here. If i use WordPerfect, it never happens. I don't know why this is.
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  33

  Are there people who have returned

  by His Excellency in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  considering all the consequences of leaving the organization (especially the loss of family), some who have already known ttat have decided to return and continue with the flow just to keep their families and friend.. my question is if anyone here had tried it and how they have been managing living a lie constantly day-after-day?, as i am seriously considering returnning back to the full routine..

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  Old Goat

  I attend very irregularly. I have the excuse of bad health and old age. My family are all active except for a brother who walked away decades ago. I keep a low profile. I don't upset my family, especailly my wife. I also don't believe a significant part of Watchtower nonsense. I don't know what to tell you.

  People were upset when I resigned as an elder. I had declining health as a ready made reason. And it was partly the reason. I avoid comments on doctrine, except those I believe. I don't express opinions. I don't answer at meetings much. I have a large extended family to preserve. I occasionally, rather bluntly, tell an elder he's being stupid. But then I've always done that. So they aren't usually shocked by a cranky old man.

  Not everything the Watchtower teaches is wrong. Some is. but not everything. What disturbs me has nothing to do with high behavioral expectations, or past history. I think much of what's said here about Russell's past is wrong. I taught history at the university level. What's said here would get a huge red-letter F. (not always, but often). I'm disturbed by abuse of power. I'm distrubed by a tendency to put personal opinion in place of scripture. I don't like bad research or poor writing. The Watchtower had been guilty of both since before I was exposed to it.

  We don't teach Logic in lower grades anymore. We should. The governing body should be made to take a course in Logic. I often link to the truth history blog. They're really competent historians. One of the owners sent me off to research Isaac Watts view of the trinity. It was interesting. But more interesting to me was his book on logic. Logic is rare in Watchtower culture.

  I wish i had a solution for you. I don't.
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  18

  Trivia about the history of the beloved Governing Body

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the very first legal governing body of (jehovah's witnesses) bible students were seven persons which included pastor c.t.russell, his wife maria, and his controversial ward, rose ball.. five men and two women.

  these seven persons were also the directors of the watchtower bible and tract society.

  this group set policies and practices for the rest of the religious followers of pastor russell.

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  Old Goat

  Nathan as I recall it they were using the large wall charts when I was baptized (1948). They used them up to 1967 I think, switiching to a small paper chart for the information board. They dropped that soon thereafter. I'm going by memory here. As you can see from my baptismal date, I'm getting a bit old. My memory isn't all that good sometimes.

  As I remember it, there is a photo of a hall showing the chart in a Consolation magazine. I didn't go looking for it. But I might later.
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  18

  Trivia about the history of the beloved Governing Body

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the very first legal governing body of (jehovah's witnesses) bible students were seven persons which included pastor c.t.russell, his wife maria, and his controversial ward, rose ball.. five men and two women.

  these seven persons were also the directors of the watchtower bible and tract society.

  this group set policies and practices for the rest of the religious followers of pastor russell.

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  Old Goat

  I remember the "sales charts" that used to hang in the front of the Hall, with a month by month report on hours, "back calls" and various placements and number of bible studies. It was a very "sales" oriented culture. I don't see the apostles keeping charts.
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  10

  Is WTBTS really imitating the first century apostles? Or could they just be copying something far closer to home?

  by likeabird in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the borg likes to go on about how everything they do is in imitation of first century apostles.. .

  that's what i usually asked myself.

  i just couldn't imagine the apostles having to lug a heavy bag of literature door to door like we did.

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  Old Goat

  Russell was all cut and past. Even the ads for his books and speaches are 'borrowed' from his contemporaries. A few of the Russellite ads are here: http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/